Expanding my setup - choosing DACs (Helios vs Ether Dream)

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Hello friends,

I am planning to expand my setup as I’d hoped to hire lasers for my first gigs but there are very few about and and the companies that have them aren’t answering the phone. I’d rather not rely on others and have everything I need in house for shows of up to 4 lasers.

I have 1 x Emma 6W laser with 30kpps galvo and am planning to buy 3 more.

I can then either buy 3 helios or 3 Ether Dream.

Just wondering what the community thinks, if Helios is reliable enough for pro level gigs or if I should go with Ether Dream?

Also wondering if I need a faster laptop. Does running more zones = more CPU usage?

I’m using an AMD Ryzen 9 5900HS with Radeon Graphics (3.30 GHz), 16gb ram at 3200 MT/s

Thanks

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Something worth noting, the Emma lasers are not legal for public shows (only home/private stuff) as they don’t have variance and are listed on the FDA do not import list.

Ether Dreams work great, but I am curious about the new Helios Pro as the USB support is a nice addition when doing simpler setups and not needing a whole network setup.

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Hiya, that would be the case for the USA but they do have the required certification for UK use (where I am),

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I would say Helios is ready for pro level gigs. Bear in mind many large shows have FOH 100m away. Best practice imho is extend your usb. The cheap 4 port works up to 75m I believe. My last “show and tell” video on this forum is a mixed build of ED and Helios and a problem I ran into with the extenders. Your PC and this extender should cover you, but once you get into Startech stuff for the long runs & multiport ,price goes way up. How “universally” ready do you need to be? Etherdreams in enclosures are the next best thing to installing them if you are unable to do so immediately. It’s really about how well you build your racks and run your cable. Ethernet cable is far easier to procure in a pinch than DB25. Im all in for network lasers which is why I am a little bummed the Helios Pro’s seem to be IDN only on the network port.

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Thanks Gabriel.

The kinds of shows I will be doing will be medium to large night clubs and music venues so cable runs probably not more than 50m. I am stocking up on used ethernet cables and thinking of putting ethernet switches every 50m to boost the signal.

I will go with Helios then to save some money. So far I have only spent money on laser gear and haven’t made any yet :slight_smile:

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To the specific question you asked, “is Helios reliable enough for pro gigs,” yes it is.

The question I would maybe consider is, which is better for what you are doing (aka are you permanently installing them or doing a temp setup?), factoring in setup time & complexity and the cost of all the accessories.

With Helios, you need a USB hub extender (expensive, and they aren’t used really anywhere else in the production world), then you need a bunch of potentially long db25 to get from the hub/DAC to each laser.

With etherdream, it’s all Ethernet/network based. Just set up a switch or two and you’re good to go.

Also of note is with more than 2-3 Helios units, the USB drivers on windows tend to get real confused real fast. I’ve seen multiple reports of windows only recognizing a couple Helios units plugged into a hub. At one point I had 3 Helios units and I had to plug my 3rd one into a separate USB port on my laptop, it wouldn’t work as a 3rd in a USB hub.

CPU wise that’s fine, the per-laser cpu load with liberation is quite small.

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Thanks so much for the feedback, this is what I was hoping to learn about. My setup will be temporary, setting up for one night in a nightclub or music venue.

I have one Ether Dream and it has been great but I’m trying to reduce my setup costs so was looking at Helios as a way to do this. The set up I was imagining would’ve consisted of one
Ether Dream and three Helios, but if this is going to cause me issues with windows recognising the drivers then that is not viable.

As far as connections I am using Emma Laser products (or potentially Knight Laser depending on price) which have IDN over Ethernet in, so no DB25 cables.

Screenshot 2026-02-22 at 12.42.19
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Currently I have a DB 25 to Ethernet adaptor on my Ether Dream and then Ethernet cable to the laser. I was planning on buying more of these adaptors so I only need ethernet cables. Then I also plan to daisy chain all the lasers E stop with the interlock ethernet socket.

I’m really interested to know what more experienced laserists think of this theoretical setup.

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You have a plan. Run with it. This will work. You will need spares of just about everything thing, so yes, keep your costs down. I don’t think any client will care if you use ED or Helios, as long as your stuff is put up on time, all working and most importantly blows the audience away. Guarantee your work will happen as promised. That is what you need to sell to your client. The whole “charge 5-10% of goods costs” is a metric Ive read on the web. Bleh. Do not sell yourself short at all. If you are good enough with budget gear, you should be able to pay your gear off in 5 shows, not 25 shows. Then you have a choice to start upgrading components if you feel your market or show size is growing or stay around the same, maybe adding a few more heads.

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Hi Hagop,

It can be a bit delicate for me to comment on specific hardware, but since you’ve asked for honest opinions…

On the laser side, both Knight and Emma are, in my experience, very much at the lowest quality end of the spectrum :sweat_smile:. If you’re looking at inexpensive Chinese units, OPT Lasers tend to be slightly more robust for a similar price point. If you have a bit more budget, LightSpace are solid. Full disclosure: they sponsor Liberation development now, but I was using them for years before that.

One important correction regarding the RJ45 ports: those are almost certainly not IDN. In most cases on lasers like this, the RJ45 connector is simply carrying analogue ILDA signals over an Ethernet cable. Electrically it’s still standard ILDA, just adapted down from the 25-pin DB25 connector to 8 wires inside a Cat5 or Cat6 cable. It works, but I’m not a fan of it.

The ILDA standard uses 25 pins for a reason. When you compress that down to 8 conductors, you typically lose certain signals, and the whole thing becomes less robust. It’s also confusing because it looks like Ethernet, but it isn’t. So your DB25-to-RJ45 adaptor and Ethernet cable approach will function, but under the hood it’s still analogue ILDA, not network data. If the unit genuinely supported IDN over Ethernet that would be different, but most of these don’t - they’re just using Ethernet cable as convenient multi-core wiring.

On the DAC side, mixing one Ether Dream with three Helios units won’t inherently cause issues in Liberation itself. The real question is Windows. I’ve personally had reliability headaches with USB drivers with hubs on Windows over the years. Not always, and I know plenty of people who run live shows with multiple USB DACs and active USB extenders without problems, but I’ve seen enough inconsistency that I’m cautious about building a mission-critical nightclub setup around it.

Network-based controllers like Ether Dream are generally more future-proof and tend to scale more cleanly. Long term, many people end up installing controllers inside the lasers themselves, so getting comfortable with network-based workflows early on can save pain later.

So overall, your plan is workable, but I would be cautious about relying heavily on multiple USB DACs on Windows.

Hope that helps, and I really appreciate how thoughtfully you’re planning this. That’s always a good sign.

Seb

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Thanks Seb and Gabriel for your valuable input.

That is really interesting to know about the ethernet/IDN/ILDA issues and that explains why the pros prefer to put their DACs in their lasers.

So for best quality image you would put a DAC in an external housing as close to the laser as possible and connect it using a short DB25 cable?

What sort of signals would one lose using ILDA over RJ45? Is it a question of quality, does it struggle with distance, or is actually losing components of the transmission?

laser price comparison:

3 x Emma 6W 30kpps laser in flight case = £1119.14 landed = 318.20 per laser

3 x Knight Laser Pub-5 6w 35kpps laser in flight case = £1200 landed = £400 per laser

3 x Opt 4W 40 kpps laser in peli case = £1,510 landed = £466.88 per laser

Given that everying else I need to buy is adding up to so much anyway, I might as well go for the better quality laser :slight_smile: thank god for interest free credit cards :sweat_smile: :money_with_wings:

I’m awaiting a lightspace quote but their website seems to be down.

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What is meant is they will install the etherdream board inside the laser housing itself, with the output wired directly to the internal diode & scanner modules and with the input set up as an rj45 jack right in the back of the laser. (This is why it takes some expertise)

This way you just plug an Ethernet into the etherdream port in the back of the laser, the other end goes in a switch or to your homerun and you’re off to the races. No DB25 to deal with at all.

The next best alternative is to do as you described with a short, maybe 0.5m, DB25 cable going from the external DAC to the laser, and the rest of the signals run via ethernet. The main advantage for this, is that ethernet cable is much cheaper to buy & lighter weight to transport and set up.

Secondarily you can send digital Ethernet signals over much longer cable runs than you can analog DB25.

If it was me, I would only consider buying the best quality of the 3 brands you listed, and those will get you started. If you want to see what the “production grade" lasers cost, price out a Kvant Clubmax, a ClubCat, or an X-Laser Skywriter. They will be a lot more money, and with that are much better build quality and ruggedness, better (or existent) customer service, and have better internal specs & components.

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To get back on @seb mentioning the ‘lower end of the spectrum’ Knight lasers;
My full setup is knight laser; 2x 3w, 2x5w, 2x15w. For me they are really responsive and thoughtfull in terms of customer service. Also; their internal wiring is really tidy (image attached), they sent me pictures in order to estimate whether ED’s would fit in correctly. Whites are nice and balanced with tight output, especially the pub5 and max15 unit (5&15W).

I don’t know which aspects would still categorize as ‘lower end of spectrum’, would love to hear it if I’m missing something, but so far, I’m really happy with their products and communication.

image
image960×1280 315 KB

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I would say that there is no real difference in image quality with any of these methods as the ILDA signal is differential so any noise is filtered out. I’m guessing the CAT5 → ILDA system maintains that differential signal so it’s less a question of quality and more a question of confusing wiring systems :blush:

Long ILDA runs are possible, and I’ve never had any interference with that kind of set up.

Seb

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Hi @Mathijs,

I’m really glad the Knight lasers are working well for you - and yes, that wiring looks very tidy. Definitely better than some I’ve seen!

You’re right to question it. My view is probably influenced by general industry reputation and the fact that I haven’t personally spent much time with them. The ILDA-over-Cat5 thing also makes me cautious, as it’s not really industry best practice, even if it works fine electrically.

But your experience sounds positive, and that absolutely counts. Maybe I should try a couple myself and form a more direct opinion.

Thanks for sharing your perspective :+1:

Seb

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Thanks for your input. I was going to DM you to ask more about Knight Laser. Sounds like a very good option.

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6 posts were split to a new topic: Cheap Chinese lasers - Emma / Shehds / Yuer / Knight discussion

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@Hagop_Heath-Matossia - What did you wind up going with and what do you like most? Tell us your setup and computer details and pros and cons between the two?

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@Kevin_T

Sure thing

I have ended up going with 4 x pub 5-6W laser from knight laser. My main reason for choosing this unit apart from the economical price was that it has proper safety points for safety chains when rigging. Also the bracket can go either above or below the laser, something that my first laser - Emma laser RGB270 could not do due to the locations of the fans on the side. The bracket fits above or behind only.

however one thing the Emma laser did very well was receive ilda over RJ45. Although the Knight lasers also have an RJ 45 socket, for some reason the first laser in the chain needs to receive its signal over DB25 and the intention for the RJ45 is just to be used to link up multiple lasers receiving the same signal.

This is now a bit of a moot point though as I’ve changed the way I route my signals. Previously I had my Ether dream DACs close to the computer and was sending ilda over long Ethernet with RJ45 straight into the laser. Now however I velcro my Ether Dreams the top of the laser. Long ethernet cables run from my ethernet switch to the DACs. Then I connect to the laser via a very short DB 25 cable into the DB25 socket on the laser. I found this to be more reliable - sometimes RJ45 into laser resulted in incorrect colour display or weak brightness. And it’s also what was recommended by numerous people on the forum. It means having to run more power sockets to the laser rigging location Until I sort out Powercon cables with mains sockets on them for the power supplies for the ether dreams but I won’t be for a little while as I think I’ve spent enough money for now! and anything powercon is fairly expensive.

DAC wise I bought three further Ether Dream Bare Bones PCBS and I had a Friend 3D print plastic housings for them. The three plastic housings alone saved me a £120 total so I’m very happy I did that.

I did consider using helios but was warned off having multiple Helios units as there have been situations where Windows only recognises one of them. I know some people on the forum have used multiple Helios units with no issues but I just wanted a bulletproof solution and I know that ether dreams have been designed with multiple units runinng on the same network.

Cabling wise I bought a load of used ethernet cables of various lengths on eBay and I have a lighting stand which goes above three metres. The stand can take four lasers but more typically I use it for two lasers and rig the other two somewhere else in the room.

One other foible is that the safety interlock of these two different laser manufacturers are using different ethernet pin configurations so I’m not able to use a single interlock for all the lasers. I still need to order the interlock that will be compatible with the knight lasers as the one for the Emma laser works on that laser only.

I think that’s it!

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3 posts were split to a new topic: Moving from Helios USB to a larger Ether Dream set up

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For the USB C ED’s I switched to using a powerbank (as @Afturmath suggested this); the ED draws little power and works perfectly in this way (make sure your powerbank isn’t too ‘smart’ when it comes to auto standby or neglecting items that draw little power); could be a short term solution. (for the older ED’s with a round power-pin, I still use the powercon grey output of the laser)

Of course building them in is the best, another option would be to use PoE, also relatively affordable and a clean setup as far as thats possible while staying external.

With regards to your interlock issue; probably also fixable if you’re comfortable with a little bit of electronics; its a simple circuit so if you’re lucky it could be easy to find when opening up your laser, but don’t pin me on this.

I actually had to invert the interlock in one of my lasers, as an older batch of Knight magic lasers apparently was wired the other way around (making my lasers think they’re always ready to go when connected to eachother, even without the e-stop connected!!!) ->this however is probably not the same as what you’re facing → different RJ45 pinout to interlock instead of just having a wrong inversion in the daisy chain.

Definitely not an expert on this, just saying it’s likely possible to fix if it causes a lot of hassle in your setup.

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